Let's talk about NRG and Seagull.

#1

Pixelfish

With a lot of free agents on the market, the San Francisco NRG team has plenty of talent to choose from to (hopefully) craft the top team that they've taken so long to. They already have the core of Iddqd and Harbleu (and maybe Seagull if he decides to stay, I will touch on that later.)

Main tanks: Choices could include MESR, skipjack, kolsti, Gamsu, xQc, Beasthalo, etc.
Support/Shotcallers: Dhak, Neptuno, Grego, Jkw, Kynnel, Zave, etc.
Support/Flex: Twilight, Dante, Grego, Michael3D, Cosi, etc.
Projectile/Flex DPS (if Seagull doesn't come back): Shadder2k, Sinatraa, Carpe, etc.

Don't forget also if LGE and CLG ends up being dropped, that adds some huge players to the market such as JAKE, Avast, Hydration, and Shake.

I'm not sure about Seagull coming back. Blizzard unquestionably need him in the league, but the question is to figure out where he goes. Does he become the figurehead of a big city team, like New York? Or do they rebuild the core of NRG with him finally?

My final dream roster for NRG is as follows: Seagull, Iddqd, MESR, Harbleu, Dhak, and Twilight. I'd maybe substitute Gamsu for MESR, Neptuno for Dhak, and Dante for Twilight.

or just drop the current roster and pick up the chipmunks PogChamp

#2

KuroiRyuu9625

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I haven't been following Seagull's stream lately but looking at his Twitch Video archive he seems to not have streamed as often, scrim/trials maybe?

I think NRG would do well to have him since he's such a popular player on top of being good. I don't know where he ranks after all this time away from top level competition but I'd assume he'd be able to catch right back up given some time. Now, I do think they can make the Seagull/Harbleu/IDDQD core work if they can find players to complement what they have and incorporate a play style that fits them better than what they had previously attempted.

As far as team composition I think you'd need some Korean staff to bring in Gamsu and/or Twilight or any other Korean so they're not as isolated but I also think that NRG being the social media team of the bunch might actually go for an all western lineup.

I also think both supports will need to be able to flex to DPS if needed and I don't know who the best of the current pool of free agents is for that.

A lot of possibilities for the squad. I hope they make the best of it...this time...

#3

Winter

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He's the most valuable asset in Overwatch, and so I can only imagine should they not sort out their roster before OWL, then he'd come back into the fold. More importantly, I'm not sure how many teams could afford to buy him out of his NRG contract, nor if they'd want to. He's without a doubt one of the best projectile players in NA, at the end of last year I'd of said he was the best. But with teams bringing players on board from both EU and KR, and the OWL prize pool being so high, I'm not sure teams would bring him in just for the popularity boost.

#4

remiska

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Seagull is not a top player, with tallents like shadder and cwoosh picking seagull would be just stupid, (if their going for strongest team that is and if they go for popular team then ill get seriously triggered coz they already have overreted player in idddqd)

Edit oh come on people have you even watched his few matches in pro teams? He was not impactfull at all, same goes for iddqd. Seagull is very ggood player true but a very mediocre pro player (seriously go watch these few times he played in pro matches)

#7

Winter

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You can't call a player with a hero pool the size which he has a "very mediocre player". He was always the stand out for NRG, even when they were playing extremely poorly. Nobody has seen him properly in the pro scene since December, so I agree with you that it would be silly to at least not try out other players first. However you don't choose your players simply because they're great with one hero but not as efficient with other, you choose flexible players, of which he is one of the best in NA. Just because he's a popular streamer does not mean you should take away the obvious talent which is there. As for the IDDQD comment, it's difficult to take you seriously with that one.

#9

remiska

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xD I still remamber game on dorado attack when iddqd decided to show his "hit scan prowess" with widow and didnt even hit a single player (not headsot mind you any hit), and you are wrong about seagull not playing since december
Have you all forgoten these 2 monthes when nrg played in monthly melee and got destroyed even by "you guys get paid" even tho they had such a "top players" as iddqd and seagull?

#11

Winter

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Except Seagull didn't play in those matches, because he'd already left the main roster by then. You can't criticise a player when you've evidently not watched the matches. Misfits have been extremely underperforming since the roster changes, yet they've got the best DPS player in the West on their roster. Just because the teams playing poorly, does that make him a worse player?

#12

remiska

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"Best west dps" you seem to be stuck in 2016 mate twiq has not been best since a long time (and no having a big hero pool doesnt make you great player) players like akm taimou are much better then him and even in team sweden tviq is a flex dps with cwoosh beeing main

#13

Winter

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Can't tell if you're trolling now or not.

#14

remiska

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Well your dumb so its not a surprise
You seem to have better understanding of this game then lh coach, so why are you not coaching some top team? Misfits was on a bootcamp in korea and scrimed against korean teams and the player that lhs coach said was by far the best western dps is akm not tviq, but why should we listen to a coach of the best team in the world when we have such authorities as "winter"

#19

Winter

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So far today you've said Seagull played in the monthly melee with NRG and still sucked (which he didnt), you've called IDDQD overrated because NRG have underperformed, you've said that having a big hero pool doesn't make you a better player, you've basically called Tviq overrated and said he's the flex player for Sweden (which he isn't, but even if he was it would make sense as he's got the largest hero pool) and you've claimed Misfits bootcamped in Korea when Rogue were there, which they haven't.

Must be a hanzo main.

#26

remiska

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I havent said anywhere they were in korea at the same time
About mobthly melee you might be right about seagull but iddqd just sucked as a player outside of nrg playing badly
Player can be good with and without big hero pool (taimou pretty much hit scan only stillbone of the bestvplayers)
Yes tviq is a flex dps for sweden and youvare overrating him a lot

Dva main thx

#5

sandshrewz

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Which pro matches are you referring to?

#6

remiska

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Ones he played in nrg, im curently on the train so i wont be able to finde them

#8

Toks

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Its not about fraggers. Its more about synergy. And from what i have heard from harbleu and NRG team, they said they had the best synergy with seagull. But I do think NRG should just buy a already developed team. Or atleast teams that have shown a lot of promise. Forming a team now with pretty much no tournaments to play in and see how good the roster actually is, is just deathwish. And i think seamoose still hasnt finished the roster yet so they cant buy that contender spot from liquid too.

#10

victococoblazin

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I'd say pick up cwoosh since his pharah is better than shadder or you could get the shadder and mesr pack and get harb pocket pharah pick

#15

Swennnnn

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Did I miss something, or are xqc and skipjack still on teams?

#21

Winter

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I don't think Arc6 are signed, neither is skipjack, so I think they can technically be picked up for nothing.

#22

darkcvc

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I think most players are open to getting bought out of any current contracts to play for an OWL team anyways. It will be all about what the teams want for them and what OWL teams are willing to pay.

#16

Pixelfish

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Remiska calling him Twiq LUL

#18

remiska

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As you can see in every other place i called him tviq, but yea thats tge most important thing that i accidently pressed w

#17

Pixelfish

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Remiskaaaa ur getting toxic again

#20

remiska

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And youre acting like a kid because of "lul he misspeled twiq" like you never misspeled anything, if you dont have anything to say, dont comment

#23

KuroiRyuu9625

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Pixle, Rem, unless you have anything productive to say your comments are just going to get ignored. This isn't Highschool or Reddit, get over yourselves and grow up.

#24

KuroiRyuu9625

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#21 Arc6 aren't signed and xQc did say that if any members of the squad got OWL offers that the others would support them in their decisions so they're fair game for sure. Personally I'm not quite convinced about Harbleu since his offtank style felt lie it was centered around himself instead of peeling for his team.

I'd like to see them build a team that's focused around supporting IDDQD and Seagull so they have the space to do what they do best.

Only squad with insane support/tank cores can go the LH way of building around those players so most teams naturally focus around their DPS and for the most part it works better since the other method requires a ridiculous amount of coordination and an almost blind faith in all your teammates.

#25

Swennnnn

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Seagull is outclassed by cwoosh and shadder2k imo. Just because he used to be good doesn't always mean he still is. His genji hasn't really been one of the top genjis ever since players like shadder2k and SDB have gained popularity. Although I do think that Tviq destroys in his pro games, his team has been underperforming. I wouldn't say he is the best DPS in the world, but he's pretty good. Also, seagull was good, but I don't think he's a top player anymore. Also gods was pretty good when he was on NRG and I'd say he's been good on C9 too. Remember when clockwork was on NRG? He didn't play the best. He absolutely destroys on FNRGFE. I'd go as far to say that buds' genji is better than seagulls.

#28

remiska

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Exactly this, someone who actually watches pro games
Yea last few buds games on genji were amazing, specialy how many multi.kills he menaged to get with blade without any other ult

#34

Winter

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I don't disagree with what you've said, hence why I only stated NA. Cwoosh and Shadder are EU, and the best western Genji's are EU (with the exception of Agilities). My point was that this guy is shitting on him because he's a popular streamer, and seems to think that there's never been a point where he was actually a good player. There's undoubtedly better players than him in the western scene, and that's why I said teams are unlikely to buy him out of his contract at NRG just for the popular boost as the prize pools for OWL are already high. I also never said Tviq was the best DPS in the world, but he's one of them, and the only player in my opinion near him in the western scene is AKM, Korean players outclass almost everyone else. Show me a player as flexible and as good with as many hero's as he is and I'll happily eat my words.

#38

remiska

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Shadder is na

#41

Winter

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This is why I think you're a troll. I didn't realise Romania had become part of North America.

#42

KuroiRyuu9625

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I think he meant that European Genji's are in general better than the NA ones and I'd have to agree. EU seems to pump out a higher number of very high level Genji players than NA does.

The only ones that come to mind are Seagull and Agilities. I'd include Surefour but I haven't seen him on it and he didn't seem to want to play him in tournaments, might not have felt comfortable enough on it.

#47

remiska

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-Wow someones a hypocrit, 1st thing i wrote was that "with talents like shadder aand cwoosh" and you disagreed
-I haveent said anything about his streams
-What did i say in one of my comments? Oh right that "youre stuck in 2016" aka he used to be goodback then
-"I never said tviq is best dps in the world" you said he is best western dps which he isnt
-Why are you so stuck on idea that bigger hero poole you have better player you are? Ill repeat again taimou is amongst best of the best dps in the world and has small hero pool

Well thanks for this comment

#51

Winter

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Jesus Christ you're a difficult one. Why do you think pro's get frustrated in rank games with one tricks? Because Overwatch is all about adaptability, not how good you are at playing one hero. If you have a larger hero pool, it means you're able to adapt to different situations that arise in pro matches, and means you're comfortable picking hero's which you might not necessarily always play. This is what teams look for when picking players, how well can they play different roles. Taimou has three outstanding hero's, McCree, Roadhog and Widow. He's probably the best in the world at two of them. Outside of that, then what? Neither of McCree and Widow are in the meta, and Roadhog is dead. His Soldier in Korea was outclassed by so many different players, teams who didn't even go as far as Envy. Yet you're trying to convince me that he's one of the best DPS in the world. When his hero's are meta, absolutely. When they're not, he's not on the same level as others.

#55

remiska

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And youre dumb one, "in ranked" seriously? You start talking about ranked games when talking about pro players?
And still taimou made these not meta picks like widow work in season 2 and 3 of apex

Also good job skiping everything else, very smart coz you just brought yourself into the corner with this comment

#59

Winter

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You're completely missing the point. I said why do you think pro's get frustrated with one tricks in ranked, I'm not comparing ranked to pro level. What's the point in being incredible at one hero in pro level? The opposing team is just going to build a comp to shut you down, and then what do you do? You can't be a pro player and not have a wide ranging hero pool, you just won't compete with the best players. When you grasp that point in your head you'll understand why I've said that Seagull is still a top player in NA.

#61

remiska

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Ok i saw enaugh of this commenr

#35

KuroiRyuu9625

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Maybe, though I feel like Seagull could perform at a top level if he had proper support from his team. I still see him in the top 5 Genji's of NA, and his overall hero pool makes him valuable in a world where the meta could be redefined at any moment because of the recent release of the Fister.

As for Buds I think his Genji is pretty good but not at Seagull's level just yet. He's not among the elite but I still see him as an excellent player as long as he's given the proper resources. As far as I'm concerned we need to see him in a well balanced team to properly assess his impact on the game but I think teams will be willing to take the gamble on him.

#37

Winter

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Common sense has prevailed.

#27

Pixelfish

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But KuroiRyuu I'm still in elementary school BabyRage

#30

remiska

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Thats what i and kuroi just said just stop posting these idiotic and pointless comments
"Memeing around" is idiotic and pointless

#29

Pixelfish

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Don't worry dude I'm just memeing around

#31

Swennnnn

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Isn't skipjack on LK, the team with private jets and a 10 man roster?

#32

Pixelfish

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I believe skipjack may be contracted to LK, but he's not on the starting roster and Alicus is letting him look for a new team.

#33

Swennnnn

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Ok, that makes sense.

#36

Pixelfish

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A lot of people underestimate Seagull- several pro players (from the west and Korea) have praised Seagull for his mechanical and game-sense talent. He unquestionably understands the game bettter than most players. His genji and pharah are still top 5 NA in my opinion, and his soldier and Zarya are standout as well.

Winter, the only other DPS player I can think of is Surefour. He's incredibly flexible and talented on multiple heroes.

#39

Winter

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I agree. The only reason I feel Tviq stands out in the western scene is that his hitscan is almost at the same level as his projectile, and if you've seen his projectile then you know it's impressive. Most players don't have that kind of flexibility, which is why he stands out in the pro scene.

#40

Pixelfish

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Oh I agree that TviQ is an absolute monster, and I've seen most of his games. I'm just also saying if I could find the " TviQ of NA", it would unquestionably be Surefour.

#43

Pixelfish

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And Remiska, we are referring to nationality right now, not what team he played on. Shadder is Romanian, and due to Liquid being goners, its best to categorize Shadder as an EU genji unless he gets picked up by a North American team in the future.

#44

Pixelfish

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I think Agilities is a top 5 genji world. Call me delusional, but I think it's true. And if I'm wrong right now, he'll definitely become one.

#46

Winter

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His level against Russia was definitely near SDB's, and I'd have SDB as either the fourth or fifth best in the world, behind the likes of WhoRU, Haksal and Flow3r.

#45

Toks

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Ya at the end of the day. Its still a team game and synergy is required more than star power.

#48

Swennnnn

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I take back what I said about buds being better at genji than seagull. What I was trying to say in my previous post is that we haven't seen seagull in the pro scene in a while and he may not be as good as he used to be. I also think Flow3r has proved in the World Cup that he can play a lot of heroes well, similar to Tviq.

#49

remiska

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Comparing buds and seagull is just impossible cox we havent seen enaugh of which so we cant say who is better

#54

Winter

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Tviq is the European Flow3r. They've both said themselves how highly they think of each other as their hero pools and skill levels are literally the same.

#56

KuroiRyuu9625

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Fl0w3r, Birdring and Rascal are the top three Korean DPS at the moment imo. Their hero pools are on Tviq's level and they've shown that they can dominate if not kept in check.

I think there's no doubt that Seagull isn't on that tier level and as Rem mentioned, not having seen him for so long makes it very difficult if not impossible to properly quantify his current skill level.

I think he does bring a willingness to do what the team needs and makes building synergy an easier process on top of being a high level player himself.

I do think he will be in the OWL though I have no clue if it will be with NRG or another squad. He's too big a fish to pass up, specially for the first year. Whether or not he proves that he's got the skills to remain has yet to be seen but ya never know.

#50

Pixelfish

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Be honest with yourself! We all know Buds is a very talented player, but his genji doesn't even touch Seagulls. Yes, Seagull hasn't been in pro play for a long time, but his skill has barely diminished, he's still a monster on genji. Buds was just good enough to keep FNRGFE's dive comp going.

#53

remiska

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Ill repeat my cimment we havent seen enaugh of buds genji to judge but the games he played were realy impressive (lets wait for contenders)

#52

Swennnnn

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I'm gonna say this right now: Haksal and WhoRU are overrated players who aren't as mechanically skilled as shadder2k, shadowburn, and agilities, but are more coordinated with teammates like most Koreans are.

#57

remiska

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That is partialy true for most korean players

#58

KuroiRyuu9625

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Coordination beats mechanical skill when the level of coordination is high enough so I'm OK with that. I think it's part of being a top tier level player so I wouldn't discount it.

We often like to compare individual players but often the amount of resources their teams put in them aren't the same so it's not always an apples to apples comparison.

#62

Winter

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If Overwatch was an individual game then the Koreans wouldn't be anywhere near their current dominance. As you said coordination and team work is everything in Overwatch, and they're just so much better currently than western teams at carrying it out. I think in the west the best example would be Rogue and Misfits. Both rosters have incredibly talented players, but Rogue's coordination and team work is just so much better. I think when the meta inevitably shifts towards Rein, Zar and Doomfist, we might just see a shift in power within western teams.

#60

Pixelfish

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Remiska, Taimou made them work simply because he's a good player overall. But TviQ could take those heroes and shine on them, simply because he's a god on a good portion of heroes in the game. If a team had to choose between taking Taimou or TviQ for their DPS spot based on mechanical and flexibility skill, it'd be dumb to not take TviQ. .

#63

Involv3r

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I see a lot of Cwoosh and Shadder being compared to Seagull. You guys do realise that they just performed well on Genji right ? Nothing else. And by well, I mean really good more often than not, but inconsistent nonetheless (i.e. contenders, OWWC). Not saying Seagull is the god Genji but he's not a garbagecan, even Surefour said he's top 5 NA on Genji.

Besides, Seagull's hero pool is one of the largest in the scene. His Mei is hands down the best in the west, and I don't care if he hasn't played pro in a decade, he'll still be the best Mei out there. Tviq's is the closest to him as he pounds on her as well.
His Zarya is praised by everybody, no exception. Not the best but he pounds.
Add to that, a top 5 Pharah NA, and I'm sure if he puts some time into her in pro play he'll get back to where he was with her. Plus a few other heroes (Junkrat, Torb notably) that he can easily play as niche picks in pro tournaments.

The fact of the matter is, Seagull has never been the in game star player that his teammates will dedicate almost everything to set him up for plays. Now don't get me wrong, this might have been the way they played and old LG/early NRG had a very capable second DPS player in Gods. But you look at early Envy/C9 and Kyky's AMA a few weeks ago, and you realise more that their whole teams were dedicated to setting up Taimou/Surefour to carry.
Plus, Seagull has always been in teams lacking leadership and in game communication. Doesn't look like a coincidence to me, and if it's not, Seagull needs to step up and embrace the role he needs to play in his team.

#64

penda

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I clicked on this thread because I thought with 63 posts it must have some good discussion and then I see remiska is having another dumb argument again.

I think it's hard to gauge how seagull would perform on a team because he hasn't played an official match on a serious team in a long time. NRG would probably be better with seagull but overall I think NRG would be better with a whole new team such as Kungarna.

Also someone said that Agilities is a top 5 genji in the world but I don't think you can say that until he plays against Koreans. Everyone thought Nico's genji was sick but then Koreans just exposed him and his team.

#65

KuroiRyuu9625

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I think that was changed to top 5 NA but again if we're going to measure that I need we need to look at the impact they have in the context of their team and not just the hero plays if it doesn't get them wins consistently.

#66

penda

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Top 5 NA isnt saying much

#67

KuroiRyuu9625

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I'd argue that it does. Any way you look at it it's still the top percent of the scene, for what it's worth I think we can extend that to top 5 NA/EU.

#68

Generation1

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Guys, just because Seagull doesn't care at all anymore doesn't make him bad. His decision making and map movement are literally untouchable and these skills don't diminish. He's the best in the world at these things on both Pharah and Genji hands down. His technical ability is proficient enough to hang with the best and his team work is strong. Is seagull the best at any of the characters he plays overall? No (except he might be the best mei/bastion/junkrat). Is Seagull an incredible player and an extremely valuable asset to literally every team? Yes.

There's not much else to say. NRG will probably attempt to have him come back but judging by his unceremonious exit and his lack of comment on anything NRG related, it doesn't sound like he's all that fond of the team or it's direction so he will probably land somewhere else.

#69

ELektrikBill

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if owl is gonna be a franchise thing and there's gonna be merch and small scale events and ahit like that every org should be tripping over each other trying to pick seagull up. I imagine publicity is going to be just as big as success and there's no easier route to publicity than having the most popular player in the world on your team, even if mechanically he isn't the best.

#70

victococoblazin

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I wanna give my opinion but i can't turn it into a paragraph NotLikeThis

#71

Clickbait

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why is it that whenever remiska has an opinion it's usually retarded

#72

Bena

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Anyone here remember that one time an NRG thread was actually constructive? Me neither

#73

darkcvc

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I myself am rooting for NRG to find a solid team and find success in OWL. I hope they keep Andre and Harb, as they are good players and entertaining, and I hope Seagull stays too. They are good for the team in both that they are great players and are marketable (i.e. will sell jerseys and apparel). I think all the arguments of who is the best player in the world do not matter here, this is a team sport and even if you got the best 6 players in NA on this team it would not guarantee they win. You have to find 6 players that can play well together and that is the first step in winning. Lunatic Hai is not made up of the top 6 players in all of Korea.

#74

Signal

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Regardless of how NRG the team has performed, Seagull's intelligence and experience are incredibly rare. If you've watched him stream, the way he talks and thinks and explains the game demonstrate that with the right roster, the strategies and synergies they could create would be at an insane level. Not to mention he has great mechanical skill. My impression was that Seagull was frustrated by the way one-tricking was rewarded in the game, as well as possibly the fact that coordination was not taken as seriously in the west as it was in Korea Although this seems to be changing, the west in general seems focused on funded the best individual fraggers, as shown by the obsession with building around dps players, instead of the lunatic hai approach of building around tank and support synergy to create the space for dps players to shine. This was best demonstrated in Apex season 3, with how whoru was replaced entirely by Gido halfway through and after a little while they looked as good as before, in not better. Also demonstrated by immortals when they picked up Kariv and Fate, transforming their team, even with the same dps.