The debate of who is the best individual is always hard to quantify.. so it got me to thinking who has had the most decorated overwatch career. Even what I’m prosposing walks a gray line. Do you value two apex championships more than a $150K contract? I’m curious if there are differing opinions on the matter.
The current Seoul Dynasty core that played on both OWWC teams, Imo, have the most decorated career. (Zunba, jehong, Tobi and kind of puts Miro in his own tier)
Ryujehong stands above everyone else who has played this game. Two APEX championships, Two world cups, and the highest pre-OWL prize winnings of any player (https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/426-overwatch). He redefined what a support player could do, and was consistently the best player on the most dominant team Overwatch has ever seen. The debate over the most decorated Overwatch career should start and end with jehong.
so tell me in what way ryujehong "redefined what a support player could do"?
he is flashy and a great player true but at the same time he is overhyped, at the owwc we could see a lot of problems with his playstyle when ana was out of meta, you should watch first games against usa when he was stuck on ana and refused to swap and they were losing, when he finally switched to zen korea started winning
and seriosuly you just called lunatic hai "most dominant team overwatch has ever seen"?
Ryujehong was just playing Ana because he was flexing on the competition, he knew that against most teams it wouldt matter if he played Ana or zen so he decided to have a little fun.
I wouldn’t say lunatic hai was the most dominant but they certainly established an era of dominance as the best team in the world by winning two straight APEX.
reading this thread made me wonder if people realise how little korean teams actually won and that having the best team currently doesnt say anything about whole history
outside of apex and 2 owwcs pretty much nothing and looking at prize money wont tell you anything (plus this year was really bad for overwatch esport with lack of tournaments)
for the most decorated teams/players it would be between rogue core (akm winz unkoe) and envyus core (chips cocco taimou harryhook)
personally i would say rogue had higher peaks but envy was more consistant through out all metas and with less roster changes so i would give it to envyus (although in my heart rogue will always be best) so taimou cocco chips and harryhook
here results for:
envyus http://wiki.teamliquid.net/overwatch/Team_EnVyUs/Results
rogue http://wiki.teamliquid.net/overwatch/Rogue/Results
lunatic hai http://wiki.teamliquid.net/overwatch/Lunatic-Hai/Results
edit: so lets get this out of the way, question is about MOST DECORATED player not BEST player so its not that hard, just go look at teams that achieved most
ryujehong won 5 tournaments (one of which can be hardly called tournament as it were show matches mostly http://wiki.teamliquid.net/overwatch/Seoul_Cup/OGN_Super_Match/2017) come on
why is everyone answering with best players in their opinion when question is clearly about most decorated player?
oh and how does players get decorated? not by winning tournaments? and if by winning tournaments than arent players from best teams most decorated?
edit: so here a question to people who downvote, if most decorated players arent the ones that won most and biggest tournaments than maybe i dont know what it means so pls enlighten me
You do have to realize that Korean teams by far is the most consistent structure-wise. The teams, the players themselves may had some crazy off seasons, but you still recognize this team from X season, that team from Y season, that's why you see LH can defend their title. They have at least a healthy T2 scene (imo), not really lockdd to Blizzard's doing. Now compare that to NA or EU. I won't say the T2 scene out west is completely dead, but it's the lack of third party tournaments that supports them. For me IMO, this is why most people chose a Korean or maybe some Westerners that made it as their choice of most decorated.
They are. And all the biggest and most important tournaments have been won exclusively by Korean teams since APEX S1 (except for the Nexus Cup 2017, an online event LH didn't even play in), which was almost a year ago at this point.
For the record, the tournaments in which top Korean teams have played top teams from other regions since S1 are as follows: Iem Gyeonggi Invitational, LH defeats Misfits and Rogue to win.
Nexus Cup 2016, KDP defeats China's best teams to win.
APEX S2, LH defeats Misfits, Envy, Fnatic, and C9 NA to win.
APEX S3, LH defeats Envy and Rogue.
OGN Seoul Super Cup, LH defeats MY.
APAC premier 2017, GC Busan defeats MY
Hell, you can even count Ardeont winning the Pacific Championship as a win for Korea.
Look, I'll give Envy and MY credit. They're both very good teams that have been at the top of their respective scenes for a while, but since APEX s1 when the best of Korea has played against the best of rest of the world, Korea has won.
very convenient "since apex s1"
ogn seoul cup - these were showmstches between 2 korean teams and 2 chinese teams
wht about apac 2016?
apex s1?
and your lack of knowledge (or research) just made me laugh "except for the Nexus Cup 2017, an online event LH didn't even play in" its not that they didnt play they just failed to qualify for it http://wiki.teamliquid.net/overwatch/Nexus_Cup/2017/Spring/Korean_Qualifier
tournaments with top western and korean teams were
apac 2016
apex s1
apex s2
apex s3
and in these tournaments its 2 eu wins 2 korea wins
and if you count apac 2017 and super cup with only top korean and chinese teams then count also contenders, overwatch open and esl atlantic showdown
I don't understand how people don't get that it's not any of the Koreans?
It has to be players from Envy and Rogue as they've been winning tournaments on multiple continents since beta. They've won in the US, EU, China, and Korea. No Korean player has won any EU or NA events besides World Cup which kinda hardly counts since they're exhibition matches.
But more challenging doesn't equal most decorated. A major in NA is still a major.
And has been mentioned, Envy won in Korea and Rogue won APAC and has done well against Korean teams despite early exits in APEX so they are hardly lacking the skill to play there.
If we are counting majors, then AKM, Winz and Unkoe are the most decorated for sure
They've won
APAC, ESL Showdown, OW takeover TWICE, OW Rumble.
Numerous first places in MMs, and other minors, and many 2nds and 3rds in other majors. BY FAR the most decorated players.
Do you value two apex championships more than a $150K contract? I’m curious if there are differing opinions on the matter.>
Seems that people also can't understand the second part of the question, do you consider a football player who has won 4 lower league trophies more decorated than a football who has won the world cup etc? question shouldn't be "most decorated" because you could then write down players who have won every tier 4 tournament OW has had and say they are the most decorated theoretically right?
Put it this way, we will see how good Koreans are with the OWL and in future OW when they perform outside of Korea, if Europe had as many tournaments as Asia did and Asia had as many as Europe had (barely any eh) I'm sure we wouldn't be rating Koreans THAT high but it's all we have to go on.
counting only tournaments with western and koresn tier 1 teams
apac 2016 rogue
apex s1 envy
apex s2 lh
apex s3 lh
but the thing is west just had tournaments year before korea plus contenders im not choosing team that won most tournaments just biggest
lh
apex s2
apex s3
envy
apex s1
mlg vegas
contenders s1 and more
rogue
apac 2016
gamescom showmatch
takover s1
takeover s2
and more
people cant understand basic englisch and meaning of most decorated
I don't think that could sting any less even without the well placed typo. Note that your comment is largely irrelevant in a situation where people don't agree on how to quantify "most decorated".
Also note that the LH wins mostly came at a time where more teams were arguably better and in an environment that can be considered more consistently competitive than that of the west.
but the thing is west just had tournaments year before Korea plus contenders im not choosing team that won most tournaments just biggest
I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean but you're literally saying that LH didn't win enough tournaments compared to Rogue and Envy so I'm a bit confused.
People don't need to agree with you though, so feel free to chill out when others don't share your views.
well it looks like you also dont understand "most decorated"
I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean but you're literally saying that LH didn't win enough tournaments compared to Rogue and Envy so I'm a bit confused.
yes wnning more (major) tournaments means teams/players are more decorated, that simple
Let me frame it for you since you currently seem utterly incapable of acknowledging anything that doesn't''t align with your opinion:
Do you value two apex championships more than a $150K contract? I’m curious if there are differing opinions on the matter.
From the OP. Now, obviously you value the number of competitions won and that's fine. I think I'm putting more value into the level of competition from what can arguably be called the most competitive region.
Why is this so hard for you to understand, your opinion isn't the only valid one, you don't need to agree.
i really cant tell if you have problems with understanding what you read or what
-having 150k contract is not a decoration so this whole sentence is stupid
even if a team is the best in the world and won in the most competitive tournament in the world but has won only this one it does not have many "decorations"
my pick is a team that won the most and biggest tournaments
and you still seem to not understand what "most decorated" means
yes a team with more wins in major tournaments is more decorated (not better) it doesnt matter if scene was more competitive
also after calling someone out on typo you really should check carefully your spelling
"No Korean player has won any EU or NA events"
right? it's almost like they've beaten the best EU/NA teams and don't need to compete in EU/NA tournaments to be "decorated."
if the standard is low and you're winning, it's not very noteworthy. if the standard is high and you're winning, it's noteworthy. rogue was dominating NA, then swiftly lost in KR multiple times after people had already started discussing that "they're the best team in the world." it wasn't real achievement, it was just jumping to conclusions and a bit of the western ego imo.
Between remiska and everyone else who don't pick at least a Korean (or maybe a Westerner) as their choice od decorated players, really confuses me. Like I said above, between NA/EU and Korea, Korea (and by extension the Chinese scene) has the most stable T1 and T2 scene by far. Numerous T2 tournaments, online cups helps grow and nurture the teams. Now NA/EU sure have their own fair share of third party tournaments, but, since the last online cup or the last open LAN event, how many have been considered an annual thing? MLG? Only 2016. Takeover? Sure, there's 1 and 2. Atlantic Showdown? Never happened again. IBP Masters, and NGE LAN, never to be seen again the following year. Now the argument is "oh why don't Korea come to NA or EU then"? The answer is why? They already have a thriving scene, they don't need to travel across. South Korea is the esports "capital" ffs, even tournaments are being shown on TV! The point is, with tournaments come and by since the beta, how many teams that still survived until this day to defend their title? Decorated doesn't mean just winning, it's also about maintaining your title, continue your "dynasty". LH did, and by proxy many Korean teams and their players, while not winning, show they can beat these proven Western teams in APEX. And remiska? It's most decorated player, not a team. (Although I did put up this wall based on a team view but yknow.) TL;DR, Korea most stable scene, thriving tournaments and decorated means not only winning, but maintaining the legacy of your victory.
we did not have these tournaments coz blizzard havent allowed (to make space for contenders)
That part. That's why (partly) we haven't seen the T2 scene in NA/EU grow, with Blizzard steps in and starting to make way for OWL, many T2 teams, or some T1 teams are dead in the water. They failed to qualify for contenders that's it. Done. You can't get in OWL? Done. And tbh, yes. APEX 2 ans 3 were several months apart, but come on. Isn't that the nature of recurring tournaments? And you could make a case of Premier, Major, and Minor tier tournaments ala Liquidpedia. See how many NA/EU teams or Korean teams have won each related Premier and Manor events. Maybe equal, but like I said, how many of the team or rather, players/cores competed still survive to this day?
ok great lets stick to liquipedia major premier
lh 2 premier 1 major and thats all they won
rogue core (so akm win unkoe)
2 premier 3 major plus numerous more tournaments won
envy core (cocco taimou chips harryhook)
1 premier 5 major plus 2nd place in another premier tournament and many more victories
You don’t have to look back further than this past OWWC. The meta wasn’t favorable for really either team but especially Korea. The H2H matchup speaks for itself. Envy’s core and also rogue have sustained success for a long period of time but it’s more complicated than just they’ve won more tournaments. Winning at the highest level carries the most weight to me and even that is subjective, but regardless my vote is still in Korea.
im mentioning owwc coz it is pretty big tournament regardless of its fairness
looking h2h and counting oww cups as major(both although last years can hardly be called so due to voting)
ryujehong 2 premier wins 3 major (although i kinda disagree seoul cup should be counted as major)
taimou cocco harryhook chipshajen 1 premier 5 major and 2nd place in one more premier plus numerous smaller tournaments
akm winz unkoe 2 premier 3 major plus numerous smaller tournaments
soon 1 premier 4 major numerous smaller tournaments
h2h biggest tournaments are mostly equal but envy and rogue cores have many more smaller victories and are at the top for over a year longer
we did not have these tournaments coz blizzard havent allowed (to make space for contenders)
koreans won apex s2
apex s3
europe apac 2016
apex s1
calling lh winning 2 apexs dynasty is just wrong they were 3 months apart
The things is, people with more eSports clout than you have called it a dynasty, unless you're saying you know more than they do.
Edit: For clarity.
people throw things like "era" "dynasty" and simillar all the time but what does it mean? in my opinion you can tell that some team had an "era" (im from cs go and there are eras of different teams) only from a long time perspective
so far i dont think there was any team in overwatch that had an era coz there was no team winning all the big tournaments for lets say half a year and 2 tournaments won in a row are not enough for me
Well Korea has had the most Premier tournaments going on, west has the most Majors. So can't possibly rank decorated players if everybody can't participate in the same tournaments.
Also World Cups are listed as Premiers on Liquipedia, which doesn't make sense, so I won't count those in.
I'm gonna name players, and by extension their teams at the time :
These are the most decorated players in the West (NA LuL).
Tobi, Ryujehong, Miro and Zunba have 1 Major win (Seoul Cup) and 2 Premier wins (doesn't feel fair not counting WCs because I personally believe they would've won them regardless, but little prep time, different team environment make them not feel like Premiers tbh).
These are easily the most decorated players in Korea.
Can't really compare, OWL should be the best starting point for such a ranking imo.
It's an exhibition tournament, where most players don't have consistent playtime with their teammates throughout the year. Synergy is hard to build in a few weeks, where pros also have to scrim with their own team in the meantime. Can't be taken too seriously, although the WC 17 was much more stacked than last year's.
So for me it doesn't feel like a real tournament, and thus my reasoning for not counting it. Probably a Minor at best for now, or should just be listed as an exhibition/friendly tournament until it becomes a thing where pro players are given a proper schedule to prepare for it.
only this year and not really
and if you want to talk about rogue you need to remember circumstances: rogue not getting spot in owl, players trialing for different owl teams (no practice) players getting into different teams some players not getting into it thus frustration and in general far from top form
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