OWL discussion thread

now that we've had time to watch or rewatch preseason matches and start to analyze all the teams ( but the Fusion of course)
. In the preseason, a lot of questions rose regarding how teams stacked up against each other and starting line ups. also include what you think the standings will be. Mine are:

1. Seoul Dynasty
2. London Spitfire
3. Dallas Fuel
4. Houston Outlaws
5. NYXL
6. San Fran Shock
7. LA Valiant
8. LA Gladiators
9. Philadelphia Fusion
10. Boston Uprising
11. Florida Mayhem
12. Shanghai Dragons
    So, discuss
    PS merry Christmas everyone

There was already a thread on this

Also why do you think that San Francisco is going to do so well

LordOfHorns [#2]

There was already a thread on this

Also why do you think that San Francisco is going to do so well

i did the one before and the second was so everyone can digest and rewatch games if need be

i do think the shock can be a great team and im willing to go as far as saying their the most underatted in OWL. U saw how well they played against the Spitfire and Valiant. Everyone thought the valiant were going to blow them out. I think Sleepy, Babybay, Nevix, and Iddqd are all very underestimated

1 Outlaws
2 Spitfire
3 Seoul
4 Fuel
5 NYXL
6 Valiant
7 Shock
8 Gladiators
9 Uprising
10 Mayhem
11 Dragons
12 Fusion

You heard it here first

My list (I omitted Fusion because they didn't play in the preseason):

1: Seoul
2: Spitfire
3/4/5: NYXL (>=) Dallas (>=) Houston
6: Valiant
7/8/9: Boston (>=) Gladiators (>=) Shock
10/11: Shanghai (>=) Florida

If I were to base Fusion off their previous individual performances I'll probably put them at around Boston.

I would write down my rationale behind my list, but I'm kinda lazy. Maybe if enough people ask

Genuinely curious, why everyone compares all the teams instead of making lists for the two divisions seperately.

Yndi [#6]

Genuinely curious, why everyone compares all the teams instead of making lists for the two divisions seperately.

• Many matches are cross division (each team plays all 5 intra-division teams and 5 cross-division teams per stage) because divisions are basically pointless this season

• 4 of the placements in playoffs are regardless of division

I’ll make a list later with explanations.

sgbros1 [#7]

• Many matches are cross division (each team plays all 5 intra-division teams and 5 cross-division teams per stage) because divisions are basically pointless this season

• 4 of the placements in playoffs are regardless of division

Kind of hard to say divisions are pointless when the playoffs take the top teams from each division..

KoleeKo [#9]

Kind of hard to say divisions are pointless when the playoffs take the top teams from each division..

Oh I see now the only place where divisions matter is the top team from each gets a bye, nvm

Ok, here goes my rankings (with reasoning!)

1) Seoul Dynasty
While many would think this to be a painfully obvious choice, I actually don't think the Dynasty are that much ahead of the rest of the league- both Excelsior and Outlaws put up extremely good fights, making every map close. However, as of this moment, Dynasty stands ahead due to their experienced and phenomenal tank/support core (the additions of KuKi and Xepher are also great), but it's the new DPS group, especially the talents of Fleta, that allow them to take the number 1 spot. However, this could change .

2) Dallas Fuel
Despite a slightly underwhelming performance in the preseason, Dallas Fuel has everything it needs to be a league-winning team, and it shows that they were attempting different strategies and comps in their first couple games. I expect them to win many of their games in the upcoming stages in dominant fashion, especially with the new added flexibility of Seagull, xQc, and Custa.

3) Los Angeles Valiant
While many also see their preseason performance as underwhelming, keep in mind that they were without the talents of Agilities and SPACE, two players who have proven to be able to turn the tides of matches in the past. Plus, with Silkthread's endless flexibility, an incredibly strong support core, and a great Korean tank duo, Valiant are destined for some great victories.

4) New York Excelsior
Excelsior and my number 5 team are kind of interchangeable, but I believe Excelsior will skyrocket once they implement Jjonak on the support and Libero on the DPS, with the potential to upset any of the top teams.

5) Houston Outlaws
Same case as Excelsior. They have a great tank and support core, but they need to figure out their DPS situation. Four very talented players, but they need more concrete positions to avoid confusion and incoordination in the future.

6) London Spitfire
I still stand by my long-passionate case of GC Busan falling out, which they've already seemed to do. Profit and Hooreg are strong as ever, but the rest of the team looks lost. If they implement more of the Panthera core, I see them finding more success.

7-10) SF Shock, LA Gladiators, PHI Fusion, BOS Uprising
Simply need to see more of these teams. They all have the potential to be at the top, they all have great players, but with more playtime we'll be able to rank them better.

11) Shanghai Dragons
A rather inflexible lineup, I can't see them making much of an impact this season, especially since they're lacking a talented projectile player.

12) Florida Mayhem
I've expressed my disappointment before and I'll continue to do so. A non talented and a mess of a team. TviQ is obviously still a phenomenal player, but he can only do so much, and Manneten does an incredible job on all his offtanks, but the two of them can't carry the team all alone. Cwoosh is a mess of a tank player, their supports are in jambles, and Logix plays way too passively for the aggressive name he built up for himself. They need roster changes as soon as possible or they'll be staying in this number 12 spot.

biggest take away from preseason for me was that having so many players and subs made teams only weaker and inconsistent, for example i cant imagine envy losing games dallas lost during preseason

maybe teams will be able to work it out but i think its just too many players and having max 2/3 subs is the way to go

remiska [#12]

biggest take away from preseason for me was that having so many players and subs made teams only weaker and inconsistent, for example i cant imagine envy losing games dallas lost during preseason

maybe teams will be able to work it out but i think its just too many players and having max 2/3 subs is the way to go

Well, since every player needed to play in the preseason, it's obviously not a good representation of the actual league, obviously there will be benched players and starters, i think subs will be similar to how Envyus/Dallas did things in Contenders Season 1, swapping in Seagull for control maps, or for set plays, or if someone is simply having a bad day.

I agree with your point though, it was clear in MYKL's analysis of Houston vs Dallas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41iGqF1KIFA) that the tanks made very obvious mistakes, that lead Houston into an ult advantage and a snowball from there, the problem, iirc, is the tanks not being on the same page, Mickie went onto highground without Cocco, and just ended up losing his mech, then Cocco jumped to to contest a 76, i think, and he ended up dying. It's clear they weren't on the same page, and my theory is Dallas was scriming with xQc more then Cocco, so Mickie adopted a more aggressive playstyle to support xQc when he dives in, but it didn't work out with Cocco, because he's more passive, so when Mickie went agro, he ended up feeding since they weren't on the same page. Obviously this was alot to take away from 2 simple mistakes, so take it with a grain of salt, but the idea still stands, that an Offtank/team will have a hard time adjusting to different Main tank playstyles.

However, there's also a counter argument that in Dogman's podcast with LAV, (https://youtu.be/MtTRjOkU9ZU?t=27m22s) they discuss the benefits of a 6man vs a 12man roster, and they bring up some good points, that a 12man roster can do in house scriming, so they don't give away strats, or practice set plays, they example they gave is if you're having a tough time attacking Dorado first, then you can set a 6v6, and practice only first point Dorado, once you take it you can restart the custom game and do it again, and no one will know you're weak on that map, and they won't know any strats.

So, there are benefits and disadvantages, i'm leaning towards the 12 man, because of in house scriming, and there's also competition for spots on the starting roster, so people will try harder.I don't think there will be as many subs in the actual season, but i guess we'll wait and see.

1. Dynasty
2. Spitfire
3. Valiant
4. Fuel
5. NYXL
6. Outlaws
7. Gladiators
8. Fusion
9. Shock
10. Uprising
11. Mayhem
12. Dragons

everyone underestimating gladiators

SKYTRiXSHA [#15]

everyone underestimating gladiators

The thing about the gladiators is they r very inconsistent. When owl begins, will we see the team that beat the spitfire or the team that was crushed by the valiant

Although the GC Busan roster fell flat during the preseason, the KDP top 5 in the world pre-OWL lineup London put forward played well enough for me to still have confidence in them. NYXL will be better now that they don't have to put Pine on support. Dallas looked completely unstoppable at times but shaky at others. If they figure out how to play like they did in the last round of Lijiang against Houston they could very easily take home the trophy, but if they don't the Koreans will have the edge. I think we'll see a lot of close matches from every team in the league. Philadelphia won't really be hurt at all by not playing the preseason. With all of the scrims and training teams do missing 2 matches won't hurt them.

The biggest surprise of all to me is how well the 3 former Kungarna members played. Babybay in particular looked like one of the best DPS in the league. I guess that team was better than we thought. Calling it now, ya boy KING Mykl will find himself on an OWL team eventually.

remiska [#12]

biggest take away from preseason for me was that having so many players and subs made teams only weaker and inconsistent, for example i cant imagine envy losing games dallas lost during preseason

maybe teams will be able to work it out but i think its just too many players and having max 2/3 subs is the way to go

I agree, never heard of a single e-sports in the history of the sport that have had a team consisting of two teams, not sure if people actually thought it was a good idea or Blizzard just wanted to be different but I find it laughable when 1 team in OWL consists of 2 completely different teams from before OWL. I'm all for having subs for 6 subs? come on man.

The benefit is having someone to scrim against, what other benefits? you have to keep 12 people happy all the time as well as on top form, how do you do that without rotating the main team too much and fucking that up? this is the OWL, everyone wants to play yet only 6 can, nobody can tell me the other 6 are going to be happy as larry and will settle for a cameo appearance here and there that's nonsense.

People might think having a 12 man roster for a 6 player game is fine but give it time and see how salty those 6 get that ain't playing as much and come back here saying 12 is fine, also fail to see how easy it can be tuning tactics to fit 12 different players playing completely different styles to eachother.

I hope these players have 300 IQ to memorize every different strategy for every different map on both defence and offence for every possible 12 man roster variation using multiple heroes because I sure as hell don't.

robokun87 [#18]

I agree, never heard of a single e-sports in the history of the sport that have had a team consisting of two teams, not sure if people actually thought it was a good idea or Blizzard just wanted to be different but I find it laughable when 1 team in OWL consists of 2 completely different teams from before OWL. I'm all for having subs for 6 subs? come on man.

The benefit is having someone to scrim against, what other benefits? you have to keep 12 people happy all the time as well as on top form, how do you do that without rotating the main team too much and fucking that up? this is the OWL, everyone wants to play yet only 6 can, nobody can tell me the other 6 are going to be happy as larry and will settle for a cameo appearance here and there that's nonsense.

People might think having a 12 man roster for a 6 player game is fine but give it time and see how salty those 6 get that ain't playing as much and come back here saying 12 is fine, also fail to see how easy it can be tuning tactics to fit 12 different players playing completely different styles to eachother.

I hope these players have 300 IQ to memorize every different strategy for every different map on both defence and offence for every possible 12 man roster variation using multiple heroes because I sure as hell don't.

Also in house scriming is so overrated

robokun87 [#18]

I agree, never heard of a single e-sports in the history of the sport that have had a team consisting of two teams, not sure if people actually thought it was a good idea or Blizzard just wanted to be different but I find it laughable when 1 team in OWL consists of 2 completely different teams from before OWL. I'm all for having subs for 6 subs? come on man.

The benefit is having someone to scrim against, what other benefits? you have to keep 12 people happy all the time as well as on top form, how do you do that without rotating the main team too much and fucking that up? this is the OWL, everyone wants to play yet only 6 can, nobody can tell me the other 6 are going to be happy as larry and will settle for a cameo appearance here and there that's nonsense.

People might think having a 12 man roster for a 6 player game is fine but give it time and see how salty those 6 get that ain't playing as much and come back here saying 12 is fine, also fail to see how easy it can be tuning tactics to fit 12 different players playing completely different styles to eachother.

I hope these players have 300 IQ to memorize every different strategy for every different map on both defence and offence for every possible 12 man roster variation using multiple heroes because I sure as hell don't.

Edit: phone sent twice the comment

remiska [#20]

Edit: phone sent twice the comment

Why did you say it twice

irishfire [#21]

Why did you say it twice

Obviously on purpouse so it would look like my argument is better

remiska [#19]

Also in house scriming is so overrated

Really? you don't think the 6 subs will be really enthusiastic about scrimming against the main 6 and helping them prepare for a big OWL match they would much rather be taking part in?

Again though, never heard of any team in the history of e-sports needing in house scrimming, but hey it might kick on and in the future CS:GO will have 24 man rosters so each team can scrim against 3 different teams etc to keep shit safe bruh.

I'm just dying to see how they prepare so many variables with 12 players and still perform at a high level, whoever wins OWL S1 should get millions because they are going through hell to get it.

Whats the format for games? Same as preseason?

robokun87 [#23]

Really? you don't think the 6 subs will be really enthusiastic about scrimming against the main 6 and helping them prepare for a big OWL match they would much rather be taking part in?

Again though, never heard of any team in the history of e-sports needing in house scrimming, but hey it might kick on and in the future CS:GO will have 24 man rosters so each team can scrim against 3 different teams etc to keep shit safe bruh.

I'm just dying to see how they prepare so many variables with 12 players and still perform at a high level, whoever wins OWL S1 should get millions because they are going through hell to get it.

"saving strats" is a meme in cs go maybe overwatch will turn meme into reality?
;)

Alora [#24]

Whats the format for games? Same as preseason?

I believe so.

Pixelfish [#26]

I believe so.

Yea I think its best of 4 with a tie breaker if necessary, which I don't like as much as a best of 5 because if it is a 3-0 what is the point of playing an extra map that wont matter

1)Seoul
2)Dallas
3)London
4)LAV
5)Houston
6)NYXL
7)LAG
8)Philadelphia
9)San Francisco
10)Boston
11)Shanghai
12)Florida

I like fusion

irishfire [#16]

The thing about the gladiators is they r very inconsistent. When owl begins, will we see the team that beat the spitfire or the team that was crushed by the valiant

They are very inconsistent? You can't be whacking that out after 2 meaningless preseason games lol

It's interesting that Mayhem have replaced Boston as the second bottom 2 side, in more than one case even being predicted as finishing last.

Does nobody remember Contenders Season 1? Is Logix suddenly garbage?

"But Wombat!! They only have 6 players!!!!! They lost both preseason games!!! How could they possibly do well?!!!"

Wombat [#31]

It's interesting that Mayhem have replaced Boston as the second bottom 2 side, in more than one case even being predicted as finishing last.

Does nobody remember Contenders Season 1? Is Logix suddenly garbage?

"But Wombat!! They only have 6 players!!!!! They lost both preseason games!!! How could they possibly do well?!!!"

they won’t do well

Wombat [#31]

It's interesting that Mayhem have replaced Boston as the second bottom 2 side, in more than one case even being predicted as finishing last.

Does nobody remember Contenders Season 1? Is Logix suddenly garbage?

"But Wombat!! They only have 6 players!!!!! They lost both preseason games!!! How could they possibly do well?!!!"

its not about 6 players or preseason but exactly about contenders
they showed they are not able to adapt to teams learning to counter them and lost contenders

Wombat [#30]

They are very inconsistent? You can't be whacking that out after 2 meaningless preseason games lol

well then how can we say they are underestimated

Wombat [#31]

It's interesting that Mayhem have replaced Boston as the second bottom 2 side, in more than one case even being predicted as finishing last.

Does nobody remember Contenders Season 1? Is Logix suddenly garbage?

"But Wombat!! They only have 6 players!!!!! They lost both preseason games!!! How could they possibly do well?!!!"

Logix has choked on LAN at preseason and contenders (and arguably before that at the world cup and possibly even TakeOver2 for Movistar)

Wombat [#31]

It's interesting that Mayhem have replaced Boston as the second bottom 2 side, in more than one case even being predicted as finishing last.

Does nobody remember Contenders Season 1? Is Logix suddenly garbage?

"But Wombat!! They only have 6 players!!!!! They lost both preseason games!!! How could they possibly do well?!!!"

Yes, mayhem is very good and is far better than most teams

However the problem is “most” doesn’t include the other 11 teams in the league

Rooky [#35]

Logix has choked on LAN at preseason and contenders (and arguably before that at the world cup and possibly even TakeOver2 for Movistar)

I've got to admit that I love watching Logix choke on LAN. The problem is that over a 40 game season he'll eventually find his groove, and if his reputation as one of the best Tracers in the world is true, suddenly Mayhem are gonna cause some mayhem.

1) London Spitfire
2) Seoul Dynasty
3) Houston Outlaws
4) Dallas Fuel
5) Los Angeles Gladiators
6) New York Excelsior
7) Los Angeles Valiant
8) San Francisco Shock
9) Florida Mayhem
10) Philadelphia Fusion
11) Boston Uprising
12) Shanghai Dragons

If it's for the entire season, then

1. Seoul Dynasty
2. London Spitfire
   ----
3. New York Excelsior
4. Dallas Fuel
5. Houston Outlaws
   ----
6. Los Angeles Valiant
   ----
7. San Francisco Shock
8. Los Angeles Gladiators
9. Florida Mayhem
10. Philadelphia Fusion
    ----
11. Boston Uprising
12. Shanghai Dragons

But for the stage 1, I think San Francisco will do slightly worse (most likely just behind LA Gladiators, maybe even behind Florida and Philadelphia). I think Sinatraa is the only top tier Tracer they have although I know Danteh can be decent.

Compared to most people, it seems like I predicted NYXL and Florida to do better, and Dallas and LA Valiant to do worse. So short explanation for each of them.
-- NYXL: In the preseason, NYXL had Libero playing the flex support role. He has never played that role in pro scene, and it was quite obvious that he wasn't doing that well on it. JJoNak is known as one of the best Zenyatta and Ana. Although he has never been tested at pro level, I think he would do better than Libero on those characters. Since he turned 18 just after the preseason, he should strengthen the team quite a bit. Also, that means Libero can go back to the roles that he feels comfortable in, and Libero should add great amount of flexibility to the team for DPS.
--Florida: Yes, they did poorly in the preseason. To me, the main reasons for their poor performance seemed to be CWoosh and Logix. Logix can't really do well on anything other than Tracer, and even on Tracer, he has failed to do well on LAN. But I believe his strength on Tracer will start to show again once he gains more experience of the big stage, and it is difficult to imagine that Tracer will ever fall out of the meta. Since TviQ can play almost anything, I think this DPS duo can prove themselves to be lethal to other teams. Also, CWoosh performance was quite different from how well he did in the contenders. I believe how he did in preseason does not truly reflect his skills.
--Dallas: They have great players on all heroes, so it is difficult to think that they would do bad, and I agree. But one weakness is that each player tend to have a specialty in certain heroes (EFFECT on Tracer, Taimou on McCree and Widow, Seagull on Genji and Pharah, Custa on Moira and Mercy, etc.). For example, Taimou is the only one who is good on Widow, and he tends to have good and bad days. So in his bad days, there aren't other players who can substitute him on Widow.
--LA Valiant: I think their great performance in preseason has a lot to do with how well the tanks and KariV's Mercy did. Fate's Winston is well know for the extreme aggressiveness, and when that works well, that helps the team greatly as we saw in the preseason. But as other teams get used to his style, they would deal with it more effectively, and when they do, Fate's aggressiveness might not work so well anymore. Also, Mercy is currently so OP, and since KariV is one of the best Mercy, he was able to do so well. But I feel like Mercy will be nerfed soon or later and will be less powerful.

This is fun