Are Koreans really that good?

#1

Every time I see a thread about a team picking up a Korean team. I instantly see someone say that Korea is better automatically.

Yes, South Korea is a very good team, the best in the world. But let's not talk about 2016 OWC because the game wasn't out for very long and it was just getting into the esports scene. Now as we enter the next year a lot has changed- 3 new heroes, 3 new maps and tons of balance changes. Everybody seems to know the game a lot better than they did back in 2016.

In APEX season #2, EnVyUs finished 5th, while some other NA team finished 9-12. But the meta was shifting by then, triple/Quad tank was dying and a new meta was beginning to form. This, of course, marked the end of the first EnVy reign. In APEX season #3, Rouge was at its peak but the Dive meta was again, beginning to die and other teams could simply play Dive better than Rouge, who fell off the map and finished 9th, EnVy finished 4th. NA teams Can do well in Korea.

Now because of OWL things have changed, These 12 teams are basically all-star teams, with Dallas signing some of the best players from around the world to bolster their already dominant lineup, LA Valiant signed SoOn, Unkoe, Numlocked, Space, and Silkthread to bolster their already very good lineup. And SFS had quietly built up an incredible DPS roster. There used to only be 2-3 really good players per team before OWL, now all those great players will be combined on one team. Korean teams shouldn't be as dominant against these teams.

In Korea, there are about 12 relevant teams, in China there about 6 (haven't watched much Asian esports), Taiwan I believe there is two, One in Australia and Oceania, NA there is 10(ish) and EU there is 4. While Korea is a small country, it still has a ridiculous esports following and has so many players, but these are all spread out among 12 teams, approximately 72 great players. Adding all Non-Korean teams together- you have 20 teams and 120 players. My point here is, players in Korea are not as spread out as other regions.

In conclusion, South Korea is the best Esports Country in the world, yes. BUT, A team of Koreans does not necessarily mean that they should beat a very good NA team.

#2

LordOfHorns

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I apologize if my argument is hard to follow, just kind of rambled into an essay, sorry

And yes, I have watched APEX before, They are very good, I'm not denying that at all. But I have not seen standouts like Taimou in APEX (except for the actual Taimou)

#42

penda

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Hacksal, Libero, Profit, Birdring, Rascal, Yaki, Timeboy, saebyeolbe, and more are much better players than almost any westerner.
Even my boy TyDolla would flex on any NA playeron any given day.

If you haven't seen standouts in APEX then you must not be looking at your monitor.

#43

Involv3r

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No they're not. What gives the edge to koreans is their commitment to their team and their craft, which westerners are lacking. And it shows even more on a game so reliant on teamplay as Overwatch is.
Mechanically, westerners have nothing to envy from koreans.

#46

Pixelfish

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literally perfectly said

#57

remiska

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i would even say mechanically western players are better, thats how you win in the west in korea its as you already said, teamplay

#44

Pixelfish

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dude are you out of your mind today or something

#45

Pixelfish

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sure there are plenty of standouts in APEX but they're not mechanically better than any Westerner, in fact, there's many westerners better than the folks you mentioned, or at least even with them. TyDolla flexing on any NA player? gtfo of here

Haksal's genji is fantastic but doesn't touch shadowburn's
Libero has great flexibility but his proficiency on those heroes doesn't touch the best Mei's or Hanzo's of the west
Profit's a great tracer, but no better than Sinatraa or Logix
Birdring/Rascal are great, but so is TviQ/Linkzr/S4/Taimou
Yaki? with his pharah? lol
Timeboy? If he was good enough he'd make most top 10 lists of best tracers, but he doesn't.
Saebyeolbe is in the same category as Profit here. They're both amazing, for sure, but not utterly better

#52

Diamond1580

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I totally agree. Especially with the mechanical standpoint, and with the team. Which disrupts his point about Korean teams being overhyped because their team play is what sets them apart.

#77

Hayha

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Delusional "NA" fanbois make me dizzy
NA player u've mentioned looked good bcuz they perform against worse "NA" players.
Haksal's genji is fantastic but doesn't touch shadowburn's? Kr gengu is diffrent Lv, even NA pro players know.
Profit's a great tracer, but no better than Sinatraa or Logix? SIN most overrated tracer, LOGIX is plat in LAN GAME.
Birdring/Rascal are great, but so is TviQ/Linkzr/S4/Taimou? True
Yaki and Timeboy surely so bad in recent game.
Oh, one more thing I think Effect is best tracer in the world and he's in NA team. It's good to u ;)

Finally, this is a team game ;)

#84

JBZ_tv

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Logix really does suck, I don’t understand the hype.

#90

Kidmike32

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I think the top players from both regions are pretty much equal, the culture of Korea and their view on esports is the difference as their play pool is deeper then the west, like how Canada has become more of a nba country so we see more of them in the nba but still majority Americans now since they put more into the game funding wise the same could be said for Koreans in esports. That’s also why Scandinavians are also good at games IMO also the cold.

#59

victococoblazin

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Lmao thinking koreans can flex on my boy MYKL,delusional at best LuL

#3

victococoblazin

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Koreans are overrated-Ajax

#4

remiska

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owc is a really bad place to look to compare countries/regions
and the truth is apex is a really bad tournament to compare regions as well, wester players since season 2 hace a lot of problems with it which koreans dont have

very long season
living in hotel
far from home

all this results in a very bad mental and phisical health whoch you could see by for example taimou tweets who during season 3 was considering even quiting competitive playing

and when you look at big international lans its 3:2 between koreans and europens (well eu coz na is shit nokappa)
APAC Premier 2016 rogue
APEX Season 1 envyus
Intel Extreme Masters Season XI Gyeonggi lw red (it wasnt that big only 6 teams and no envy but im still putting it in)
APEX Season 2 lunatic hai
APEX Season 3 lunatic hai

conclusion yes koreans are overrated and as someone who came from cs go it annoys me even more when i hear "koreans so good at esport no one else has chance in any game" no they are not cs go? no rocket league? no and there are many more games they are totally irrelevant

#5

LordOfHorns

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I used OWC to set an example of korean dominance, I understand that's not the best example, but I put it in to mention and denouce it. Apex is the main Korean tournament that most people watch in the best showcase of korean Overwatch. Yes, APAC premier 2016 and APEX 1 was NA victories, but I don't include that because 2016 Overwatch wasn't fully developed in terms of esports, at least until Overwatch Open. Since then it has been all Korea. But in weird scenarios yes.

#6

remiska

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ekhm na victories? how in the world? there was not even a single na player
na havent achived anything in overwatch

2016 was fully developed as an esport its retarded to not count these tournaments, on what basis was it not developed?

#7

LordOfHorns

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Ok yes, They were EU players, but right now, Rouge and ENVY are European competing in NA. (In contenders at least, also RIP rouge) Overwatch was still in its infancy in 2016. I know that there were actual tournaments, and yes I do see those. But it's not as relevant to my point and is not as relevant in general. I mean, Cloud 9 was good back then

#8

remiska

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overwatch was in its infancy in the beggining of 2016 but by the end and with tournaments like apex and apac it was developed

#11

LordOfHorns

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When Overwatch Open happened it was almost completely developed, when APAC and APEX happened it was developed, yes

#12

remiska

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you said something different in #7

Yes, APAC premier 2016 and APEX 1 was NA victories, but I don't include that because 2016 Overwatch wasn't fully developed

and if you count envyus and rogue as na i count kdp and gc busan as eu as theyre london team
wheres logic?

#15

LordOfHorns

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Yes, I admit i contradicted myself. Checked the dates on the tournament, got it wrong. Whoops

#19

remiska

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and btw eu is top1 rght now gc busan eu hurray!

#22

LordOfHorns

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ENVYUS=NORTH AMERICAN TEAM WITH EUROPEANS

continue thread →

#9

Pixelfish

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They're very good, indeed. But they're not the gods of the world. "Oh a Korean is on your roster? Oh you'll win everything!" said everyone when C9 got Kaiser and Xepher.

"Oh, your whole team is Korean? Ez win for OWL!" Said the owners of New York and London.

"Oh, South Korea in the World Cup? Why are the other teams even playing?" -said every person ever

It's all FAKE NEWS. They're good, yes! They're great, in fact! You know who else is great? A lot of other players!

Just because the region of Korea has dominated many eSports doesn't turn them into gods. Their region is strong because they consistently produce more talent, not better talent. They have a better work ethic and more strict system which has players practically undergoing a military camp at many orgs just so they can win. It's the Korean way of life, I know it from my grandparents.

But they're extremely overrated by the community. Thanks for this post btw.

#10

LordOfHorns

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Well said

#13

Pixelfish

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I mean for real, a lot of people don't understand. Everyone says "NA is trash" when there's been very small amounts of international competition to gauge that. Korea is an eSports hub. Miro and Lunatic-Hai are celebrities for gods sake. ESports is worked into the very essence of South Korean life, unlike the rest of the western world, so talent just pops up in every street corner and PC cafe and alleyway.
If that same cultural respect was applied to North America, do you really think brand new talented players wouldn't show up? I mean gee-whiz, Guinea or Victo could become pros for all we know! Scrubasaurus would end his famed writing career to sign that Valiant contract! Koreans aren't better humans, they don't have something the rest of the world doesn't, they're simply in a better environment to go pro and be respected for that eSports dream.

Sorry I'm ranting at this point, it's just a topic that I care about strongly.

#17

remiska

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na is trash
never won against eu or korea

#18

LordOfHorns

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...

#20

remiska

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accept the truth in memes
na memes

#21

Pixelfish

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That's legitimately false but ok

#25

remiska

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gime some high tier tournament won by team made of na players

#27

LordOfHorns

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Winter Premiere

#29

remiska

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but there needs to be eu team to play against and this lg was pretty bad and is only team with eu players (faze is half na)

#28

Pixelfish

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Winter Premiere, Contenders Season 0, World Cup 2017 (yes I can predict the future)

#30

LordOfHorns

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Also Carbon Series (if that counts) There also haven't been many large NA tournaments

#32

remiska

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again of course na gona win if there are no other teams

#31

remiska

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winter premier np eu teams except for not really good one and only 1
contenders 0 again faze has half of its players na
i dont take owc into any discussion about teams is completly outside scene

#34

LordOfHorns

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IMT won Winter Premier and Contenders season Zero. Which is an all NA team

#35

remiska

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mate again of course na team gona win tournament when there are no other teams
its like saying "but korean team won apex season 4"

#33

remiska

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ok ill be more specific gime some big (or not so coz i count amm) tournament with good na and korean/eu teams which na won

#36

LordOfHorns

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Alienware MM January, Winter Premiere

#37

remiska

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AMM no good eu team (again only lg)
Winter premiere no good eu team (AGAIN only lg)

#39

LordOfHorns

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LG WAS GOOD. DEFINE GOOD. IS GOOD ROUGE/NIP/ENVY/MISFITS AND ONLY THOSE TEAMS???????

continue thread →

#38

Pixelfish

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Stop arguing with him, he's not worth the effort.

#40

remiska

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"arguing" discussion =/= argument dont act childish
examples you gave have no eu teams so of course na is gona win
its a fact that there was no high tier tournament with good teams from eu and na that na won

this way:
there was never an na team close to the level of top eu teams like rogue envyus misfits

#62

poi98

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Pretty almost agreed

#63

KuroiRyuu9625

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Some of his points ring true, some are objectively biased and as misdirecting as the KR fanboys out there.

#14

Diamond1580

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Says Koreans are overrated, also says he hasn’t watched much Asian ow.

#16

LordOfHorns

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I live in the US ok. I have school. I can't wake up at 3 am
Except for Apex Finals

#67

karzahni14

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you do know about VODs, right?

#23

Pixelfish

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Well I do. I'm still in school in the US as well, but I still watch. My point stands.

#47

LordOfHorns

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Ignore this, this was supposed to be a reply

#53

KuroiRyuu9625

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This thread is an odd one to me. The only thing it could possibly be good for would be to stroke one's ego that their region is better than another.

As it's been mentioned, I don't think a group of players of any region are necessarily better than another when put in a vacuum. The Koreans are strong because of how their scene is structure along with the fact that their culture is a good fit for excelling team play and favoring it over a more solo carry mindset that we often have in the west.

It's almost impossible to compare regions properly since the game hasn't had enough cross region tournaments where undue stress wasn't put on the foreign teams. I think a large part of the arguably correct perception that the Korean scene is the strongest is that it's also the most active in terms of big tournaments and the environment seems to be what players need to thrive.

I've watched most of not all the OW available to me from NA, EU, KR, CN and SEA and even though I have a good idea of which teams are strong in their own region I have to defer to very few result from teams playing in the other regions. OWL will also take time to produce any meaningful results since the fully KR teams will need to acclimate to not being in Korean etc.

In the end I don't see the point or benefit of arguing about which region is the best and whether you think any ethnicity or region is superior is largely irrelevant in the end, imo.

#55

LordOfHorns

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This thread is cancer, sorry i created this monster

#58

d1vine

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Overall from all said, we can't compare regions and there respective teams if there is no international LAN.

#60

Yndi

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Really happy there doesn't appear to be as much Korean dicksucking here as on Reddit (sorry for the choice of words but certain people are just so annoying). But you gotta believe what the lord and saviour Monte says I guess. It's really not comparable so far and OWL miiiiight give some insight.

#61

KuroiRyuu9625

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I'll say this much, when in their home element the Korean scene as a whole does seem to be stronger than the rest. This doesn't mean that Korean players are just better than NA, EU CN or SEA players and making that comparison in a vacuum is illogical.

What remains to be seen is if the imported players are able to retain and/or improve their level of play when taken out of said element.

tl;dr - KR (Region) > All (Region) != KR (Players) > All (Players)

#64

Yndi

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Definitely not disagreeing, right now, Korea offers the best competition by far. But except for a glorified exhibition tournament, they have not really shown up outside of their region, except for a weak APAC and an even weaker OPC.

#65

poi98

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best math operation ever

#66

majkel1893

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they are when it comes to strategy > aim :D just see games like LOL, SC2, HOTS all dominated by Koreans.
then take other shooter games that require more aiming than strategy
I'm not saying Koreans are bad aimers but they only have a few really good and outstanding aimers and the 2nd of the all the game is more about who dives and who shot calls and manages his ults better rather than who hits more headshots. but i guess either OWL or OWC will show.

#68

robokun87

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Korea have ever had a team playing a game similar to an FPS compete with anyone remotely good outside of Asia, question isn't are Koreans really that good the question should be are Koreans really that good outside of Korea, thinking back to all the big fps titles over the years going all the way back to Quake 3, UT and 1.5 etc Koreans are almost non-existent if existent period.

Let's see how they perform outside of Asia against the best of the world before we start jizzing all over them, people on this site rate the shit out of Asian teams like the Chinese teams yet they've done absolutely nothing against non-Asians outside of Asia, the sample size is very small yet people still hype the shit out of Asians for some reason.

#69

paolodicanio

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That's also a big factor of what games are supported in Korea just take dota2 for example, they have only 1 Korean team that is in the top tier. cuz League of legend is getting way more attention than dota2 there.
Quake, UT and other fps games beside csgo had basically 0 supports from organisations in Korea neither do ppl play it there..
while in cs you have a lot of the Korean teams/orgs with good support, but they just can't keep up skill/aim wise with the top western teams.

#73

KuroiRyuu9625

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The "can't aim" myth has been busted for quite a while, at least as far as Overwatch goes, not sure what Overwatch matches you've been watching lately.

#82

paolodicanio

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well compared to aimers from cs that actually hit headshots after headshot alot of ppl in ow cant aim.

#83

KuroiRyuu9625

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That's not limited to Korea, and comparing it to other games serves no purpose in this conversation, as it's about Overwatch, not CS.

#86

paolodicanio

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sorry but even a lol player himself said koreans are like 80 times better with strategy/tactical games than with actual shooters where u need to headshot. mayb if they play 24/7 shooter they can be aimgods who knows but for now their main focus on strategy games.

#89

KuroiRyuu9625

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Again, this is largely irrelevant as we're talking about Overwatch. In this game of Overwatch the argument that Koreans aren't as good at aiming is an incorrect one since you obviously have players of widely different proficiency and mechanical skill across the board.

Naming any other game defeats the purpose of ranking KR, NA, EU CN or SEA players individually, in the game of Overwatch.

#72

KuroiRyuu9625

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I just explained the shit out of that unless you couldn't take two seconds to read before deciding to comment. There are as many ppl "jizzing" all over them as there are people like you shitting on them for no logical reason, with no empirical data.

You want to know what an actual evaluation would be? That would be short LANs all over the world, in each region so that each of the groups could play on the other's turf but not over such a period that accommodations would become a factor.

We won't get that in OWL, it's been talked about to death at the top level and people that actually follow the Overwatch scene, because other games mean nothing in this conversation, know that of course Koreans are amazing in Korea. Their whole support system is built around making them better. Unless they can perfectly replicate that there's a well documented chance that they won't be able to maintain that level of performance.

This topic is beyond stupid and incredibly pointless unless your goal is to either reinforce stereotypes or try and find some obscure reason why your region is "better" than another. Individual skill varies, team skill varies, region skill isn't a thing, it's a perception, no matter how much you want to talk about it. Considering how insulation the Asian scene has been it's incredibly idiotic to go down the "Asians/Koreans" are the best/gods/shit/bad aimers.

There's blind stupidity on both sides, quite obviously and I'd assume you'd be smart enough to see that.

#74

Pixelfish

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Get em get em

#70

Generation1

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c9 is the only korean roster in OWL that will truly stand out. They are completely meta proof. The others will be top 8 but I think Valiant, Fuel and the proespective Optic will all compete.

#71

Generation1

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ok, bold prediction. If I'm right every one of you has to pay pal me 20 bucks. If I'm wrong, I'll do something crazy but I'm allowed like +- 2 variance. OWL S1 standings will be.

London
Fuel
Seoul
4.Valiant
Optic
NY
Dragons
8.Shock
LA 2
Philly
11.Miami
Boston

#75

Pixelfish

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Here's mine:

1) Dallas Fuel
2) Seoul Dynasty
3) London
4) LA Valiant
5/6) Houston/NY Excelsior
7/8) SF Shock/Miami
9/10) LA2/Philadelphia
11) Shanghai Dragons
12) Boston Uprising

#76

poi98

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I am waiting official roster

#78

KuroiRyuu9625

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Same, I'll do my best to list teams by how strong I feel they are but I'll most likely be horrendously wrong and it'll have to be after all rosters have been revealed.

#85

poi98

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Agreed 100% also i wanna make a sort of list for type of meta and duo heroes supp/tank( imho Boston is better on Zarya Rein than Houston and SF but better wait all roster)

#79

Hayha

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Here's mine:
1) London
2) Seoul Dynasty
3) Dallas Fuel
4) NY Excelsior
5) Miami
6) Houston
7) LA Valiant
8) SF Shock
9) Boston Uprising
10) Shanghai Dragons

LA2, Philadelphia dunno roster yet

#81

HipiMan444

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London
Seoul Dynasty
NY XL
Dallas Fuel
Shanghai Dragons
LA Valiant
Miami Misfits
Houston
Boston Uprising
SF Shock

#80

HipiMan444

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It's not that all Koreans are really good, there are plenty of bad Korean teams (Flash Lux for example) It's just that the top few Korean teams are so much better than all of EU and NA. They could 3-0 every team in those regions, excluding maybe EnVyUs and a few others because they just have superior coordination and teamwork.

#87

Explodey

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I agree with HipiMan444 in that it's the difference in the top teams that makes the difference between KR and NA/EU.

As it is becoming more and more apparent, team coordination/focusing is so important in this game, and I think that's where the main difference comes from. For example, GC Busan is not successful because they have stellar individuals. I think there are plenty of NA and EU players as good as the players in GC Busan (although Profit is truly something else). GC Busan has really good team coordination. They know whom to focus right away, and all of the players dive altogether so well. This is probably why KR domination strengthened during the dive meta.
If this is the case, we might see the gap closing down overtime as teams will learn to focus well once they have good supporting staff to train them, and get to practice well with the teammates for a long time.

However, it might just be a cultural thing. Western culture tends to focus on individual performance, whereas Eastern culture tends to focus on cohesion within a team. That might be why Asian teams are thriving in games requiring good team coordination, like LoL and Overwatch, and Western teams are thriving in games where stellar individuals can make a huge difference, like most FPS games. If that is the case, Asian teams, especially KR teams, might continue to dominate as seen in LoL.

#88

Raisin

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London
Seoul
Dallas
NY
Miami
Houston
Shanghai
San Francisco
LA Valiant
Boston